Saturday, December 1, 2007

Anti-Feminists = Rape Advocates??

Marcella Chester wrote what I am sure she thought was a very clever article proving that anti-feminists condone and promote rape. It was based on an article written by John McAdams at Marquette Warrior about a panel discussion on “Men, Masculinity, and Sexual Violence”. He said that one of the speakers said, in her talk, that “the stereotype of feminists is that they hate men. She insisted that this isn’t so.”

He then went on to question this assertion based on the speakers’ presentations. Chester took a little bit of his conclusion and attempted to twist it into support for rape and rapists. The following has been lifted from her article, with my comments in blue:

McAdams: But would anybody be convinced that feminism doesn’t resolve, essentially, to man hating? The feminist who deny it aren’t lying. They don’t think they are man haters, they just think they are working for “gender equality.” But then, the average Klansman would probably insist he has “nothing against Negros.” In the world of the feminists, the villains are the white males.

Chester: Ah, yes. Feminism and the Klan are parallel movements in every way except their target. This parallel construct would imply that Klansmen think they are working for "racial equality."

1. He said Klan attitudes toward blacks are similar to feminist attitudes toward men. Hardly the same thing as the two being parallel movements. More like the level of willful ignorance in the two are the same.

2. Nice deflection of the actual argument. Considering the following statements made by famous feminists, how can you say that feminism is not “man-hating”?

· "I feel that 'man-hating' is an honourable and viable political act, that the oppressed have a right to class-hatred against the class that is oppressing them." -- Robin Morgan, Ms. Magazine Editor

· "To call a man an animal is to flatter him; he's a machine, a walking dildo." – Valerie Solanas

· "I want to see a man beaten to a bloody pulp with a high-heel shoved in his mouth, like an apple in the mouth of a pig." - Andrea Dworkin

· "Rape is nothing more or less than a conscious process of intimidation by which all men keep all women in a state of fear" - Susan Brownmiller

· "The more famous and powerful I get the more power I have to hurt men." -- Sharon Stone

· "In a patriarchal society, all heterosexual intercourse is rape because women, as a group, are not strong enough to give meaningful consent." -- Catherine MacKinnon

· "The proportion of men must be reduced to and maintained at approximately 10% of the human race." -- Sally Miller Gearhart

· "Men who are unjustly accused of rape can sometimes gain from the experience." - Catherine Comins

· "All men are rapists and that's all they are" -- Marilyn French

· "Probably the only place where a man can feel really secure is in a maximum security prison, except for the imminent threat of release." -- Germaine Greer.

· “If women are supposed to be less rational and more emotional at the beginning of our menstrual cycle when the female hormone is at its lowest level, then why isn't it logical to say that, in those few days, women behave the most like the way men behave all month long?” – Gloria Steinem

There are so many more where those came from. I didn’t even mention the fish and bicycle one. It’s funny, though, that while I was googling for feminist quotes, I didn’t come across one that said, “I love men just the way they are”.

If you’re going to say feminism is not a man-hating movement, I’m going to have to insist that you provide links either to sites showing feminists condemning the statements listed above, or feminists telling women to respect men as men.

Chester: Remember all those poor white males who were treated by feminists in exactly the same way the Klan treated black men? How many thousands of white men have the feminists dragged into the street and butchered for public entertainment?

Ah, more deflection. Dragged in the street and butchered, no. Raped by the courts based on the no more than the words of a woman, thousands of times.

Chester: (…blah blah blah Klan and lynching blah blah more deflection...)

Refuse to do nothing as women and girls are raped? Man hater.

Don't believe in assumed consent to sex? Man hater.

Want laws that recognize all rapes as real crimes? Man hater.

Demand thorough and professional investigations of all rape reports? Man hater.

Oppose treating rape victims as if they are guilty until proven innocent? Man hater.

Don't want to look the other way as women and girls are physically abused by boys and men in their lives? Man hater.

You’re implying here that feminism = advocating for victims of rape. You’re also implying that feminists are the ONLY ones advocating for victims of rape. I’m afraid you’re sadly mistaken here, Marcella. Objecting to having a man convicted of rape based on no evidence at all except the accuser’s story, and advocating the right to rape with impunity are worlds apart. Unless, of course, you’re a man-hater. Which, by your implication, means feminist.

Chester: Still support women's right to vote? Man hater.

Oppose sexual harassment on the job or in the street? Man hater.

Support equal pay for equal work? Man hater.

View women as full human beings rather than as men's property? Man hater.

As for this whiny list of victim cards, show me links that prove men and men’s rights advocates support any of the “oppression” you list.

Chester: Funny but the picture this creates of men is a fearful and violent one.

That says it all. Feminism is a religion of victimhood, and you can’t be a victim unless you have a victimizer. Feminism works very hard to portray men as violent and to be feared. If that isn’t hate, I don’t know what is.

McAdams said elsewhere in his conclusion:

“One might ask what the point of an event like this is. There is plenty of room to argue pro and con on gun control or government health insurance, but who argues for rape?

The answer the feminists give is: you have to embrace our entire political agenda or you are a rapist -- or at least an accessory to rape. If you oppose Title 9, or women in combat roles in the military, or affirmative action to guarantee that women are half of all business managers, it’s your fault.”

36 comments:

crella said...

How many white men have been dragged into the street and butchered?

How many thousands of men have been raped in prison, how many men have had their faces, bodies or genitals cut up, burned, or torn off by girlfriends and spouses, only to see the women get off with a slap on the wrist? Mary Winkler ring any bells?Where are the feminists then? Aren't feminists against rape? Genital mutilation?

Anonymous said...

Kelly have you seen the article about the New book by an Irish Male Feminist? "A Man In A Woman's World". It details his experience as the Chairman of a Rape Crisis Centre. And how Feminists are instilled with hatred towards Men.

Google Jackie Hayden. It is an eye opener to be sure. The new tactic of the psychotic Man haters is to simply label anyone who does not 100% support their agenda as a Rape Enabler.

Here is an excerpt from the opinion article on Jackie's new book.

Jackie Hayden has certainly lived a full life. He was involved in signing U2 to their first record deal (I suppose we must forgive him for that); he was closely involved with Hot Press magazine; he wrote the book My Son, with Phil Lynott's mother.

He was also on the management committee of the Wexford Rape Crisis Centre for eight years, four of which were spent as chairperson. He was the first man in Ireland to hold such a position.

So when he says that, by the end of his time with the Rape Crisis Centres, he had "become thoroughly disillusioned with what I saw as a deeply hypocritical strain of anti-male sexism" there, and had come to see their attitudes as "fundamentally disempowering of women" thanks to a "constant tendency to portray the female of the species as helpless lumps of victimhood", then he surely deserves to be heard.

Jackie Hayden is not some caricature bar room boor, after all, but a child of the Sixties, fully signed up to anti-sexist, anti-racist spirit of the time. When he speaks out now against the disintegration of the feminist ideal into bitter sectionalism, it genuinely is more in sorrow than in anger.

Will Irish feminists listen to the advice of an old friend any more carefully than they do to those they see as their enemies? It's doubtful.

Feminism long ago retreated into its shell, dismissing all criticism as a misogynistic backlash -- which is why it is more like a cult, a cabalistic inner circle, these days than the intellectual and political force for change it could and should have been. The sisters simply don't listen anymore to anyone who doesn't sign up 100 per cent to the catechism. In that respect, Hayden is most likely wasting his breath, but he does it with such vigour and honesty that we should just be glad he did it anyway.

One by one, he tracks his growing distance with the basic tenets of the feminist creed. That the media is responsible for violence against women, for example -- he just doesn't accept that as an article of faith.

Friend of USA said...

After reading those shocking feminist quotes ( some of them I had never seen before) and reading about some feminists arguing there is nothing wrong with female genital mutilation
I conclude that although some women are less rational and more emotional at the beginning of their menstrual cycle,
feminists are not very rational ALL THE TIME.

Anonymous said...

Crazy quotes by feminists -- Yeah, yeah, yeah, we've all seen the list of crazy quotes.

I don't see what some of them have to do with man-hating. The Catherine MacKinnon quotation doesn't seem man-hating at all. She is saying that because women were second-class citizens, they were essentially coerced into sexual relationships. (If your whole cultural worth is based on marriage, and your job opportunities are limited by your sex, then you have little choice but to marry and therefore little choice but to have sex with your husbands. You may or may not be enthusiastic about it but you never had a meaningful choice.) It's not an argument that I buy at all, but it is not a man-hating argument. It is a critique of the system both men and women lived in. She is not saying that men wanted to be rapists, but rather that the system was such that meaningful consent was not possible even between the best-intentioned couple. Again, I think she overstates her case, but I don't see it as a man-hating argument. Same with the Susan Brownmiller one, which is a class critique not a critique of men as individuals. The Gloria Steinem quotation is not man-hating either, but rather is illustrating the absurdity of anti-woman stereotypes by turning them around.

The fish without a bicycle one always makes me laugh as an example. This was grafitti on a women's room wall that kind of took off and became popular as a bumper sticker or button about a million years ago -- early 70s I think. This was an era when women were still told they needed a man to have any kind of worth, or status, or happiness. But in many ways men and women are not well- matched, and relationships with men often cause women terrible problems. So there is an irony in the old idea of "needing" a man. It's kind of a rueful equivalent of a man saying -- "Women: can't live with 'em, can't live without 'em." The fact is that most of us probably do need a man like a fish needs a bicycle, but we want and love and pursue men anyway! That's why it's a funny saying.

A couple of the quotations seem CLEARLY anti-male. Valerie Solanas is just plain crazy; she is to feminists what Charles Manson was to Hippies -- a deranged person who adopted a pose. I will happily condemn the Catherine Commins comment as I know its context and there is no justification at all for what she said. The other quotations I don't know enough about, or what the person was responding to or trying to say.

Finally, I note that many of these quotations (except for the Commins one) are pretty old and are speaking to issues that don't necessarily exist any longer in our society. I see more "man hating" among women of my mother's generation and traditional women than in Gen X and younger feminists. Older women had to put with a lot of men who took it for granted that they should be top-dog in the marriage or at work because that was the cultural expectation of the era. So a lot of older woman and traditionalist women have gotten frustrated with men in general in ways that we younger feminists never did. We younger feminists expect men to work with us on an equal basis as partners, and have faith that men are willing and able to do so. We expect to have fulfilling relationships with men based on egalitarian principles -- and we do. Men of my generation and younger don't act like my father was brought up to act.

-- Margaret

flint's gunner said...

Sometimes I read what Feminists have to say and it literally makes my brain hurt. Argument (and I'm using the word in the Socratic sense) is useless. It's like throwing someone into a pool and listening to them lecture you on the mythical nature of water. What's the point of attempting a debate with such a person? We aren't even speaking the same language. How can there be any compromise if one side refuses to admit there's a problem? How can you reason with programming that runs this deep? This is not aimed at Margaret per se, either; I refer to the ubiquitous attitude of the Modern Woman. I am coming to suspect that the battle between the sexes will never be resolved in my lifetime. You simply cannot convey your points, your voice is drowned out by the gate keepers of the Sacred Dogma and you are left to sit in the ashes without the camp, mute and unheard.

What is to be done? Our society is crumbling; a Fool can see it happening right before his eyes! Families are being eradicated, eviscerated, gutted; relationships between the sexes have become a bitter joke, fodder for the late night talk show hosts, who make a living helping us get a giggle out of our own demise. Maybe it's time to take a step back and ask ourselves some questions: assuming for the moment that women really had no power over their own lives 40 years ago, isn't it possible that your cure has proven worse than the disease?

Anonymous said...

M : The Catherine MacKinnon quotation doesn't seem man-hating at all...
...Same with the Susan Brownmiller one, which is a class critique not a critique of men as individuals.

Wow. Accusing all men of being rapists is not man-hating ? That's like saying: women, as a class, are prostitutes. Isn't that woman-hating ? Yes, equally.
Let me add more - it is not only misandrist, but also heterophobic - both these qualities are deep-seated in feminism. Rape hysteria is a common over-defensive, last-resort feminist tactic, which feminists use when they have no more valid 'logical' arguments.

Hormone Fluctuations May Be Responsible For Many Mood Disturbances In Women
Gloria Steinem, and Margaret, must be beginning to feel really foolish.

As for Valerie Solanas, you are clearly misinformed. If she was just plain crazy, a lot of feminists, too, are just plain crazy, including members of N.O.W. - your 'friendly' neighbourhood feminist organization.
Wikipedia : Feminist Robin Morgan (later editor of Ms. magazine) demonstrated for Solanas' release from prison. Ti-Grace Atkinson, the New York chapter president of the National Organization for Women (NOW), described Solanas as "the first outstanding champion of women's rights." Another member, Florynce Kennedy, represented Solanas at her trial, calling her "one of the most important spokeswomen of the feminist movement."
The S.C.U.M. Manifesto is like porn for feminists to get off on.(Oops! I hope you're not an anti-pornography feminist. All feminists have their own (often contradictory) versions of feminism, it's quite easy to offend them - maybe that's why they are always complaining ! Not that I care.)

I see more "man hating" among women of my mother's generation and traditional women than in Gen X and younger feminists.
That is because misandry has become socially acceptable and difficult to discern - and guess who is to blame for that ? Your foremothers !

Anonymous said...

You may be right, Margaret. In my opinion modern feminism seems to be less about hating men per se and more about just getting as many benefits and perks for women as possible. The never-ending victimhood plaint and the misandrous rhetoric are just tools used to get those perks.

Contemporary feminism has nothing to do with equality or justice. The agenda is whatever will get women the most goodies.

When you look at feminism in this light, it is perfectly clear why feminists will demand absolute equality with men in some respects yet still cling to traditional female privileges in others.

Richard

Factory said...

Margaret:
"This was an era when women were still told they needed a man to have any kind of worth, or status, or happiness."

Whew, good thing we've progresed so far....now it's just MEN who are told they need a woman to have any kind of worth, or status, or happiness..

crella said...

"This was an era when women were still told they needed a man to have any kind of worth, or status, or happiness."

??? As far as I remember, in the 70s we were just...living our lives as we pleased in one of the freest nations in the world. I wasn't "told" how to live my life.

" see more "man hating" among women of my mother's generation and traditional women "

A woman who hates men is NOT a traditional woman. You'd best get your terms straight. Simply being under a roof and making token gestures at being a housewife is not "traditional".

'Traditional' means accepting full responsibility for the smooth running of a household, managing the household budget, the education of the children,the family's social schedule,in other words being an equal partner in the home, carrying half the load--young women like you have been brainwashed into thinking that women were nothing but scullery maids to their husbands and children but you could not be more mistaken. Traditionally the way the children turned out, the manners they used, the cleanliness of their clothes, all depended on their mother's efforts. Women were accountable for the education of their broods and were found fault with if the children were lacking.The husband worked to support the family and the mother raised the children to have manners, cooked for her family and made a HOME.

THAT is 'traditional', not frozen dinners, Starbuck's addiction,gym and spa visits, unsupervised rude snots for kids,and ingratitude to the man who breaks his back to afford all of it.What now passes for 'housewife' is deplorable.

'So a lot of older woman and traditionalist women have gotten frustrated with men in general in ways that we younger feminists never did.'

Uh-huh....younger feminists just decided to criminalize masculinity,adding words like 'emotionally raped' and 'virtually raped' to the lexicon. Raised victim status to an art form.

'So there is an irony in the old idea of "needing" a man. It's kind of a rueful equivalent of a man saying -- "Women: can't live with 'em, can't live without 'em."'

We are supposedly the smartest life forms on the planet. We are, though, the only mammal to reject the idea that the complementary halves of our species "need" each other.

Someone very wisely pointed out that the "can't live with 'em can't live without 'em" quote acknowledges the remaining need of one for the other despite the difficulties...the 'fish' quote completely eliminates it from the equation...a fish has absolutely NO need for a bicycle. So your assertion that the quotes are similar is false.

'Men of my generation and younger don't act like my father was brought up to act.'

Which was how? You do realize of course, that your father is not all men...

Anonymous said...

To accuse MRI's of supporting rapists is hypocritical, since feminists openly support and encourage false accusations of rape, which is an infinitely worse crime.

Anonymous said...

I find it offensive that because I subscribe t a certain ideal, that yes in cases has strayed, but if carried out is great, you assume I hate men.

My favourite feminists is a man...does he hate men? No. Your just seeing awful things feminism has done..which I don't even call feminism.

Im gonna be straight up,

1) We are all born equal, what you do with your life determines your ultimate out come
2) Due to being born equal, we deserve the same rights, privileges and responsibilities
3) Gender roles should not be mandatory. It should be a matter of choice
4)The individual should not have to succumb to what society deems fit for them- if your a man and u wanna be a ballerina fine, go for it. If your a woman and you wanna be a footballer, go for it. (Yes I know, I used the most stereo-typical examples I could. i was trying to make a point)
5) Yes, both sexes are very different. It doesn't make one better then the other.
6) Your sex should neither hinder nor enhance your life prospects.

And thats what I believe, whole heartedly. In fact..its not a belief. It's fact, Im waiting for the rest of the world to catch up ;P

Hmh said...

They're good at playing word games aren't they?

Can't win an argument with these people. Then again, they can't argue with evidence from the world coming home...

The latest reports from here in NZ suggest that about 35% of women and 40% of men (of my generation) will never marry, never have children, and probably die single. The figures are open to contest, but then any weekend walk out in the world will show you singles everywhere.

Nice one feminists. You've done more damage than was caused by World War One, in either total or relative proportions of the population.

flint's gunner said...

I find it offensive that because I subscribe t a certain ideal, that yes in cases has strayed, but if carried out is great, you assume I hate men.

(Who's making assumptions? If I join the KKK, does it not follow that I hate black people and Jews? If I join A.A., isn't it a sure bet that I've got a drinking problem? You choose to ally yourself with a group that relentlessly preaches Misandry; you either hate men or are indifferent to the injustice being meted out to them in our society. Naturally, after the manner of all your hypocritical kind, you categorically refuse to address even one of the multitudinous examples of Feminist hatred posted on this site. Instead you hide behind phony Outrage. You find us offensive? Who cares! Go find yourself a Womyn's Study group; maybe they'll be impressed with your little Martyr routine. I think it's safe to say the men on this board have seen your little tantrum a little too often to render anything but weary yawns by this point.

Communism. Sounds great on paper, doesn't it! Everything held in common, everyone working peacefully together for the good of the Collective. Why, it's the greatest force for social change since the discovery of Fire, boy howdy!! And how many people in their untold MILLIONS have been MURDERED by this foul ideology? Oh, but let's keep trying; it strays from time to time, but it's just so darn CUTE in theory!)


My favourite feminists is a man...does he hate men? No. Your just seeing awful things feminism has done..which I don't even call feminism.

(Either he hates men or he's telling you what he believes you want to hear. Self interest ocassionaly takes the form of Subservience, you know. Either way, male feminists are beneath contempt, servile little lap dogs that they are.

And here we see again that nifty little rationalization technique Feminists are famed so far and wide for: "But that's not REAL Feminism!" How convenient! How deluded must one be to offer this as a genuine argument? So the Final Solution, that wasn't REAL National Socialism! Are you convinced? But why NOT!?)

Im gonna be straight up,(Yeah. Sure you are. We're all waiting with bated breath down here, I can tell you....)


1) We are all born equal, what you do with your life determines your ultimate out come

(This is a central tenet of the Enlightenment. Ever heard of Thomas Jefferson? Read the Declaration of Independence? This belief has nothing whatsoever to do with Feminism. Are you starting a Dead White Male Appreciation Society? That I might join!)

2) Due to being born equal, we deserve the same rights, privileges and responsibilities

(We certainly do! That's why we object to Feminists literally getting away with murder in this country, in addition to being nakedly favored in Family Court. (Mary Winkler, anyone? Yay equal rights!) Oh, you were referring to this fairy tale of historical female oppression, weren't you? Please, carry on castrating that tired old Straw Man!)

3) Gender roles should not be mandatory. It should be a matter of choice

(It always has been a matter of choice, despite what your revisionist HERSTORY charlatans have taught you.)

4)The individual should not have to succumb to what society deems fit for them- if your a man and u wanna be a ballerina fine, go for it. If your a woman and you wanna be a footballer, go for it. (Yes I know, I used the most stereo-typical examples I could. i was trying to make a point)

(This is true. What you have left out is that you do not deserve the STATE MANDATED RIGHT to do or be these things. It is sort of funny that you ignore the many men involved with ballet, though--which Federal program guarantees their ability to participate again?

Wanna be a fireman? That's great; can you pass the physical requirments? No? Then too bad, you're outta luck. But wait, you say there are Federally mandated quotas, and we HAVE to let you in? OK, we'll just lower the requirments then...we'll water everything down so you can 'compete'. Either you are being disingenuous or you're not terribly bright. I'm guessing it's the former.)

5) Yes, both sexes are very different. It doesn't make one better then the other.

(Ironically, you have chosen here to attack the central pillar of Feminism ideology: Women are the superior sex. Now that's just cheap entertainment; come see the Amazon trip over her own sword!.)

6) Your sex should neither hinder nor enhance your life prospects.

(Again, this is only true if your prospects fall within the range of your natural abilities, and are not the result of feminized legislation designed to re-engineer Society along the approved lines of Feminist dogma, relying on the overwhelming threat of State sponsored force for their execution. Are we to believe you cannot grasp this distinction?)

And thats what I believe, whole heartedly. In fact..its not a belief. It's fact, Im waiting for the rest of the world to catch up ;P

(My, those of us who constitute the 'rest of the world' are unfit to grovel at your Enlightened feet, aren't we? We only crave to touch the hem of your garments! MRA's are demanding that women no longer be awarded special treatment based on their posession of a Hoo Hoo Dilly, and that men no longer be demonized by our profoundly misandric culture. We'll be waiting with growing impatience for you to catch up. Hopefully it won't take ANOTHER 40 years for women to understand what a scam this whole movement has been)

Anonymous said...

Look Flints Gunner.

You wanna fight feminism? fight it with logic and compassion, dont fight it with derogitive mannerisms. Other wise, all you'll have is a screaming match, no point there, so try to maintain your dignity for gods sake man.

Im fine with someone saying Im wrong, if u can prove it and show me the light. U just decided to take cheap pops at me, uncalled for buddy.

Im still young and figuring out the world, and you dear sir, have not shown me a very positive image of anti-feminism.

flint's gunner said...

Kelly dislikes drawn out arguments, so I'll limit myself to the following reiteration:

Who's making assumptions? If I join the KKK, does it not follow that I hate black people and Jews? If I join A.A., isn't it a sure bet that I've got a drinking problem? You choose to ally yourself with a group that relentlessly preaches Misandry; you either hate men or are indifferent to the injustice being meted out to them in our society. Naturally, after the manner of all your hypocritical kind, you CATEGORICALLY REFUSE TO ADDRESS EVEN ONE OF THE MULTITUDINOUS EXAMPLES OF FEMINIST HATRED POSTED ON THIS SITE. Instead you hide behind phony Outrage. (Some things just never change, do they?)

You find us offensive? Who cares! Go find yourself a Womyn's Study group; maybe they'll be impressed with your little Martyr routine. I think it's safe to say the men on this board have seen your little tantrum a little too often to render anything but weary yawns by this point.

Anonymous said...

like i said, i was open to you telling me why feminism is bad, as long as it wasnt hostile.

you know, im actually researching ant-feminism at the moment, and i have only seen one tactic so far, its the whole attack with rage thing.

maybe i havent looked far enough, maybe thats all there is i dont know..just an observation. you lived up to it.

im quite young, much MUCH younger then you i expect. u seem old, the way u type and rant on eludes me to this. i may be wrong..but i doubt it.

anyway, i was researching anti-feminism coz i was having doubts about it, but ur obviously not up for rational discourse. eh, loss for you. your the one trying to fight feminism..pfft, heres a feminist here and all u do is cry and sook. what good is that?

thats another trend iv noticed, instead of trying to debate rationally and compassionately, u just get all up my my face. geez buddy, im the next generation, and u aint enlightening me to shite, so way to go in accomplishing ur goals. thats REALLY how u defeat feminism.

Anonymous said...

@ Flint: Menarebetterthanwomen.com

Signed,
MV

KellyMac said...

Anonymous 7:43AM:

I held off on posting your comment until today when I could take the time to respond to you before anyone else did. If you are truly researching anti-feminism, and I sincerely hope you are, there is one thing that you have to keep in mind. It's something I had to learn, and it's something every woman interested in this movement has to come to terms with.

Men, as a general rule, love women. (That isn't it ;)) For a man to be driven to anti-feminism, it takes literally years of seeing the misandry that is so common you may not even notice it, and more than likely having been burned by a number of women. This usually includes women he was supposed to be able to trust – mother, sister, wife. I think a better word than 'burned' is 'betrayed'. I have a number of thoughts on that subject, but I'm not going to go into it here.

My point is that by the time a man is active in this movement, he has been driven beyond rage. You don't have to understand it. You do have to accept it. 99% of them do not hate women. 99% of them know that “not all women are like that”.

You may not be like that. I really don't know, and that's the point. You're going to see a lot of hostility here. These people don't sugar-coat, and neither do I. If you say something that sounds like a feminist idea, you will be called on it. You have to develop a thick skin, and be willing to question your own beliefs. If they stand up to the scrutiny, fine. If they don't, you have to open-minded enough to change them.

Anyway, what I'm trying to say is that I hope you continue with your research. If you have a question, ask in a respectful way, and you will more than likely be answered in the same way. If you get defensive, you will find nothing but argument. Like it or not, that's the way it is here. Believe me when I say it's not misogynistic. I'll say it again for clarity: anti-feminists do not hate women. We hate feminism.
If you want, you can feel free to email me at kelly.ladymac@gmail.com. When I get my blog moved to its new location, that will be posted again, along with all my links and my old blog posts, which a man with more foresight than I very kindly archived.

So, all that being said, post away. :)

Anonymous said...

:P k thanks... i am actually researching believe it or not. coz after i was talking to some anti-feminist fella, he told me that i wasnt a feminist, and listed reasons why. so it got me thinking..

wat i dont understand tho, is if these ppl want to really get ppl on board and eradicate the enemy (feminists) why take an aggressive stance. i seriously woulda been open to sum1 saying this and this is y feminism sux..all i did was come out and say how i felt. then i was told that i have phoney anger, ect ect It dosent help ur cause..ya know? if i wasnt so curious about this..that woulda just hardened me up more as a feminist..just a heads up ;)

KellyMac said...

I hear ya, anon. That is a problem. But there's so much rage, what can you do?

I also have to point out, there's a certain amount of rage among feminists, too. Just saying...

Anonymous said...

Yah, I know. and i know that flints dude will jump all over me for this (again..not really helping change my mind -_-) but i dont agree with wat alot of the angry feminists do, and some of the slander ect directed towards men, and yes i dont call them real feminists coz they make me sick, i mean here

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/feminism

NOTE: EQUAL

Im all for equal rights, but some "feminist" doing and dealings don't promote that, but then again some do (it just dosent hit the media as much ;p)

So poor lil me is all confused...I definetly support the first wave of feminism and to an extent i think the 2nd but the last one kinda scares me.... :(

4sure, i hold alot of feminist ideals i guess, like i dont think the guy should be the bread winner in the family...just coz hes a guy, if hes the best option then yeh...u get what i mean...

so tell wat do u think i am? do i sound like a feminist?

MarkyMark said...

Anon 7:28,

Why do men fight feminism with rage? Well, there are a couple of reasons.

One, polite, logical discussion & debate does NOT work with the enemy; all they do is shout us down with the standard shaming bullshit. They attack us personally, rather than merely ACKNOWLEDGING our points, let alone ANSWERING them.

Two, as Kelly pointed out, after experiencing misandry for our whole lives (I'm 45, and I've seen this BS for most, if not all, of it), we are PISSED OFF, especially since almost all women have bought into this ideology; though they may not CALL themselves feminists, they live lives and espouse philosophies that would make Gloria Steinem, Robin Morgan, et al, jump for joy! We're sick & tired of being mocked, blamed, disparaged, impugned, and held down all because we have a penis and a 'Y' chromosome-enough already! Women are right (in one respect) when they say that men are like dogs. Like dogs, we're loving, faithful, loyal, and devoted. We're also like dogs in that, you kick us often enough and long enough, we WILL turn on you. What you're seeing is the beginning stages of this; things will get a lot worse, I'm afraid...

Three, men are adopting confrontational tactics precisely because they worked SO WELL for the enemy, i.e. feminists. Men, when beaten by a superior foe (and feminists WERE a superior foe by any measure, given the changes they wrought in society, not to mention they utterly DESTROYED our sorry asses!), will examine what they did against said enemy; after all, they lost, which means they did things wrong-end of story. Men also examine the superior enemy's strategy(ies) and tactics; why not, when they HAMMERED you? Face it; feminists HAMMERED US, big time. We're not too proud to borrow from the enemy's playbook, not when they destroyed us like they did. You don't win or beat your opponents by doing things wrong; it's just that simple. IOW, from men's point of view, confrontation worked for women; if we do it, it should work for us too. It can't be any worse than trying to play nice with a bitter enemy; that's just what feminists are-bitter enemies; anyone who even tries to argue that is a moron.

In closing, men are becoming confrontational for three reasons: 1) being polite & nice to the enemy has not, nor will not, work; 2) we men are SICK & TIRED of all the BS you women heap on us-enough already; 3) the enemy, given their lopsided victory, did things better than we did, so why not steal their playbook? Why not emulate what, from where we sit, was clearly a superior way of doing things? It's just that simple, Anon...

MarkyMark

Factory said...

The obvious answer to our "student" here, is that one can hardly expect a warm reception at an anti feminist site when espousing feminist views. Research away, but stop being "hurt" already. Make a statement minimizing my concerns, or attacking my principles, and I'm coming out swinging, and it's your tough luck if it catches you by surprise.

Anonymous said...

You can't fight feminism with logic and compassion. They have no logic and their compassion is reserved for themselves.

Anonymous said...

Well i consider myself a feminist, but it is because I am compassionate and (to an extent :P) logical that i should hear out why there seems to be anti-feminists.

this means one of two things:

1) you're all just against equality, and in my opinion; scum

or

2) I've misinterpreted what feminism, or at least modern feminism is about.

If the real answer is tha latter, then I not only owe it to you people, but to myself to hear you and ur arguments out...i just get a lil put off wen ppl like flint get all uppity, but i guess its to be expected. i just think it is a bad stance to take straight up ya know?

well, thanks anyway. i might take u up on ur offer and email u kelly, k? :)

KellyMac said...


well, thanks anyway. i might take u up on ur offer and email u kelly, k? :)


I hope you do. :)

My advice is to try to see through the angry words to what people are actually saying. It requires control of your own emotional reactions, but is so rewarding.

KellyMac said...

@ flint's gunner: It's not drawn out arguments that I object to. It's when they degenerate into squabbles that are more about the people than the situation that I really lose patience. Please feel free to continue, good sir.

flint's gunner said...

Why thank you, Kellymac!:) Gracious as always, I see. Well then, I believe I WILL add a few words. As a quick note to Anon, I believed you were the same Anonymous who went on at some length justifying the Feminist quotes that sparked this debate. I was wrong; that was Margaret. And so I apologize for the confusion.

One thing we should all remember from time to time is that the Internet, amazing vehicle for debate that it is, has one major drawback--it cannot convey the subtle tones of voice that help convey a majority of our meaning. You believe I'm spluttering with rage when I address my remarks to you; I assure you such is not the case. I haven't raised my voice yet, metaphorically speaking. Sarcastic and dismissive of what appears to me to be equivocation on your part? Yes, very. Loud and out of control? Not a bit; my personality rarely expresses itself in that way. And that is all I had to add: the rest of my comments are general and not intended for you specifically.

Markymark is 45, and says he has seen through this BS all his life. I am 37, and have also seen feminism for the raft of garbage it is at least since I was 5 and started Kindergarten. Words cannot convey the frustration one feels when he or she is forced for DECADES to deal over and over again with the same old tired, frequently disproven lies, the same old fairy tales of 'Oppression', the same old pre-programmed finger wagging self righteousness. It is the latter trait that drives me craziest of all! Go on and be the priveleged Princesses if you must, but for Gods' sake STOP FORCING ME TO PRETEND I AGREE! I don't. I have a brain of my own, thank you very much, and it appears to be functioning at factory specs.

Feminists have bought into the most laughably threadbare ideology that ever afflicted an ostensibly intelligent species since time began. I mean, they make Phrenology look reputable by comparison!

Yesterday I was poking around a sprawling antique market, whiling away a rainy Sunday afternoon, when I stumbled upon an old book called The Royal Path of Life. Its flowery language piqued my interest, and so I bought it for 4 dollars. It's intended to be a sort of guide book for the formation of a good Character. Printed in 1876, this book is now 130 years old. And do you know what it has to say about women? Why, it outdoes itself in praising the fairer sex, and in declaring in no uncertain terms that they are the superiors of the less complex Males! It condems without apology any attitude that confers upon them anything but the highest respect and yes, Equality. It calls for the universal education of women as a just and sensible approach to what was then modern living. It sets forth at great length their keener intuitions, their greater stores of fortitude in the face of suffering, and their invaluable cohesive effect on civilization. Not a word of oppression, not a hint of misogony, not a shadow of a farcical 'Patriarchy'--these were men who loved and valued women very highly indeed. You ladies could have seen instantly what a lie all this drivel was if you would have taken the time to actually read the wealth of old-world literature at your disposal, and gone on from there to think for yourselves. Don't believe me? The Royal Path of Life is available on Amazon; see for yourselves.
http://www.amazon.com/Royal-Path-Life-Success-Happiness/dp/0766155625/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1197902899&sr=8-1

You're entirely correct, Kellymac: I love women! You won't find a more enthusiastic fan of the sex than you see before you in Flint's Gunner:) But I LOATHE Feminists like the deadliest poison! My hatred for their twisted world view is implacable. That is what I mean when I say I don't care if they are offended; no quarter asked or given. Either you are a Woman or you are a Troll, in which latter case I will take up whatever intellectual weapons are at hand and I will do my best to slay you. And for that you will NEVER hear me apologize!

I have to agree with Markymark (again). It has become obvious that polite and reasoned debate will accomplish nothing. So many women swallow these lies without reflection, and then cast themselves as uncertain or unsure about the movement. "I have some doubts, but I'm for Equality!" they cry, and then go on to engage in all the misandric behaviour that has come to characterize this culture. Quotas? Oh sure, give me some of those! Male bashing in advertising? Haha, what a Laff Riot! Lighten up, you old Oppressors! Feel your power slipping away, is that it? Haha! What's that? You say I look sexy in this Fembot approved leather mini-skirt and boots? Sexist! Haul him away, sisters, haul him away and have him crucified! Abased and slutty behaviour? Oh, we're just LIBERATED now, you old Fuddy-Duddy Stick-in-the-mud!

If you cannot see what a double standard all this is then I cannot respect your Intellect, insight or even common sense at all. It's like a Southern belle who claims to feel ambivalence about slavery, but wouldn't leave Tara for any reason whatsoever. Would you respect me if I said, "Well, I'm not for beatings and seperating families, but slavery started out as a good idea!" or would you rather conclude, "Anyone who would defend that institution is a villain and a degenerate!" It's so self-evident that I am utterly bemused that any reasonably intelligent person would ever buy into it for a second. And just as the Abolitionists set up a loud, clamorous opposition to that ancient social cancer, so must the MRAs become STRIDENT in their demands! Nothing else will effect change at this point. I do not seek to make friends or even to persuade these hateful, sexist swine at this stage of the game. Let 'em wallow in their own filth for all I care. In a free society people should be allowed to think and say whatever they want. I'm not for muzzling Feminists for the same reason I don't endorse muzzling the KKK.

But I AM keenly interested in seeing to it that the legislation that enables so much of the pervasive misandry is overthrown, and that right quickly! No more sex-based favoritism in Family Law! No more relentless male bashing on TV! No more naked hatred being spewed under the aegis of 'Womyns Studies'! No more rape shield laws for false accusers! You want equality, baby? Well, SO DO WE!

And now...how about them Packers?:)

Pat Rie Arch said...

I want to take this opportunity to commend you for doing this clever blog. It's well written, to the point, and full of wit.

Great work KellyMac! Greetings from a Norwegian anti-feminist.

gustavharry said...

I want women be equal to men because that's how it should be.
Women on the other hand, they want to be equal to us on the good things, but when it comes to the bad things, like paying the check after a dinner date and carrying bags, that's the mens job, and the women always get away with things, like crimes.
When you say that men are just raging, i laughed, seriously check the quotes, if they're not opinions based on rage, then I'm really scared, some women actually think that we should kill 80% of all men?
I'm ready to embrace you as equals, are you?
Forgive me if my English isn't perfect, it's not my native language.

gustavharry said...

I want women be equal to men because that's how it should be.
Women on the other hand, they want to be equal to us on the good things, but when it comes to the bad things, like paying the check after a dinner date and carrying bags, that's the mens job, and the women always get away with things, like crimes.
When you say that men are just raging, i laughed, seriously check the quotes, if they're not opinions based on rage, then I'm really scared, some women actually think that we should kill 80% of all men?
I'm ready to embrace you as equals, are you?
Forgive me if my English isn't perfect, it's not my native language.

Anonymous said...

I have a police background clearance, not a raging crack dealer new age leader. I could not get the job because of Idenity theft from a woman former landlord.
I could not even get the credit report to show the "officials", this life rape of me cost me 65k per year for 7 years, and is there
any orginization to gang up on the super gang called F; the majority, no, 15 years continuous rape: legal. This started with her friend attempting to falsely hire me, beating me then prof 'friend'
crashes me on the freeway knowing insurance (crime insurance) would protect him and them and demand expidited settlement, I won, I lost 3 years, 3 billion brain cells
my health 10 years, for 5k dollars;
now the ID fraud, "Liferape" is the result of making females both man and bestowing old fashoned womanhood upon all of them. She has
killed 3 of her kids; legal murder abortion with no man accounted for;
(woman is a God under law and sole creator) a life of crack and sick kid customers including her baby brother; I could go on got to go.

Anonymous said...

Just passing by, first time viewer.

Personal opinion: I believe feminism has become so institutionalized that women no longer have a right to declare what stripe of feminism they belong to. Women are to feminism, what christians are to christianity. Inventory, ideological chattel. The identification with and declaration of a feminist identity, tells me immediately I am not communicating with an individual, but with a drone. I do however enjoy your blog and will be visiting your new location.

Anonymous said...

The Gloria Steinem extract is completely out of context. It is from an humour article called ``If women could menstruate`` http://www.mum.org/ifmencou.htm . It was made to laugh at the common misconception of the woman menstrual cycle that leads people to think that menstruation is a bad thing in itself. Its main idea is to use the same cultural strategy to create a world where men would menstruate and how it would be understood. She shows that the cultural logic is created to suport our misconception because her arguments are visibly absurd. If you want to write something signifcant about feminism stop corrupting and stealing fragments of speech without its context. I don´t know about the other feminists but I imagine that you did about the same. Thank you.

Anonymous said...

The Gloria Steinem extract is completely out of context. It is from an humour article called ``If women could menstruate`` http://www.mum.org/ifmencou.htm . It was made to laugh at the common misconception of the woman menstrual cycle that leads people to think that menstruation is a bad thing in itself. Its main idea is to use the same cultural strategy to create a world where men would menstruate and how it would be understood. She shows that the cultural logic is created to suport our misconception because her arguments are visibly absurd. If you want to write something signifcant about feminism stop corrupting and stealing fragments of speech without its context. I don´t know about the other feminists but I imagine that you did about the same. Thank you.

Clover said...

Spotted your write – ups, it’s cool. Very beneficial and interesting there are some ideas I haven’t heard before. Thanks for sharing.

clover
www.n8fan.net